On October 7, 1964, Debra Miller’s life turns upside down when her mother is arrested for the murder of her father. At only fourteen years old, Debra becomes a ward of the court, grappling with the unfathomable trauma of watching her mother’s trial and conviction—a devastation that is only amplified when her family’s tragedy is splashed across headlines nationwide and featured in Joan Didion’s “Slouching Towards Bethlehem”.
Debra is the author of the new book “The Most Wonderful, Terrible Person: A Memoir of Murder in the Golden State”. She joins me to share intimate details about her family and the murder case that has so deeply shaped her life — and to wonder whether her mother really killed her father that autumn night so long ago.
The author’s publisher page: https://shewritespress.com/portfolio/debra-miller/
Interview with Debra Miller — The Most Wonderful, Terrible Person: A Memoir of Murder in the Golden State
Erik: Welcome, everyone to another episode of the Most Notorious podcast, I’m Erik Rivenes. So happy to introduce Debra Miller to the show. She is a former high school English teacher for thirty three years. She grew up in San Bernardino Valley, California, where her mother was convicted of murdering her father when she was fourteen years old. It’s a story that she chronicles in her new book called The Most Wonderful, Terrible Person: A Memoir of Murder in the Golden State. Welcome to the show. Thank you for coming on.
Debra: Thank you for having me.
Erik: Yes. So this is, of course, a very personal book. It’s about you growing up in this very tense atmosphere, this difficult relationship between your parents and your relationship to them. And then there’s a murder as well. How much of the book is memories, recollections, and how much is research?
Debra: Oh, most of it is recollection. And there is research. Um, well, I went to the Supreme Court to find out why. Why they denied. Denied the appeal. And places where we stayed like a motel. When we came into town in our car. I looked that stuff up in the era to make sure that I had everything, you know, had that information correct.
Erik: And what was it like that the process, like putting it all down on paper. And how did you deal with your emotions as you were putting it together?
Debra: I did cry a lot. It took a long time to write it. I put it down sometimes for more than you know, more than a year, because it was very hard on me to write parts of it. And I would cry. And when I would cry, I would stop. Um, most of it is from memory. I have a pretty clear memory of everything. I also was able to talk to my family to find out things that I. Especially at the end of my mom’s life, those that last year and a half where we lost her, we didn’t know where she was. So I had help with friends and family and that’s just. And some of it I wrote years ago, some of the some of those I didn’t hardly even have to edit, I don’t know, I, I became a worse writer as I was writing, I think. So all of that. And then it just the, the last year is a year ago or a year and a half ago is when I finally just sat down. I had an editor and got it finished.
Erik: How did you feel when you finished it?
Debra: I felt sad. I enjoyed spending the time with my mom and I was the boss in this case, so I enjoyed that. But I it, it was, it was. And I’m still in that phase. Like now what I, I don’t consider myself, I’m not a writer. I wrote this memoir. I was an English teacher, so I knew something about writing, but I don’t have another book in me. This is this. I don’t know how to make up fiction. So this is this is it.
Erik: Yeah. So if you don’t mind, can you tell us more about each of your parents? What were their backgrounds and how did they come to meet?
Debra: My mother was born in Canada, and they came to the United States when she was about going to college. So they, they her parents were religious fanatics and so were my father’s parents were religious fanatics. And they really ruined their children. And she was walking. My father was very bright. And after World War Two, they had this program because they needed doctors and dentists, um, in the Army. And then the Korean War started and they offered my father to go in. this accelerated program because he was so bright. So at twenty one, he was a practicing dentist and he really wasn’t very mature. And he was really quiet, very handsome. And he drove through the college, I don’t know, looking for girls, I’m not sure which. And he saw my mom walking down some stairs with the friends and she was the opposite of him. She was very gregarious and laughing and that really impressed him. So he sent her a dozen roses. And three months later they were married. So they didn’t know anything about each other. They were exactly not supposed to be together. And then they got and then he got in the army and they went to, um, Guam first and then ended up in Japan. And he was not nice to her when they were over there. So it was not a good marriage almost immediately. And I asked her once, why didn’t you leave him? Because she came back on a boat with me, and my brothers weren’t born yet. And she said I should have left him, but then I wouldn’t have had Ron and Guy, my brothers. So it was unhappy in from the beginning.
You know, women didn’t have a lot of freedom. You couldn’t have a credit card in those days. And I think she was just scared. Like, what would she do? And divorce had a stigma. So she stayed unhappily and had affairs.
Erik: What were their names?
Debra: He had he went by a nickname, Cork. His name was Gordon Miller and she was Lucille Miller.
Erik: So growing up in this family, you mentioned in your book that not everything was was sad. There were moments of joy, moments of of cohesiveness as a family unit. And how everyone felt very often depended on your dad’s depression, how he felt.
Debra: Yes, it was his depression. And, uh, you know, he, well, he got himself addicted to pills because he could, he was a dentist and he could prescribe for himself. But we did, you know, we took vacations. And one of the happiest times is when we would go back to Oregon to my grandparents had a cabin, a really nice cabin in Wallowa Lake. And so we had cousins and, you know, uh, picnics and all kinds of fun. So every summer we had a good time when we and we would go away for weekends, our parents would always get us a room like across the hotel from them, and they weren’t really very interested in playing with their children. But my brothers and I had a blast, and we always were open to go into the dining room and order food. We were good swimmers. So I don’t recall feeling, um, that I didn’t have my parents weren’t paying attention to me. They take us to dinner at night. It’s been later when I hear my girlfriends talking about their family and how much their parents were involved in enjoying them as children, that I saw that my parents didn’t. They loved us as their children, but they didn’t enjoy playing with us as children. But I, I don’t remember, I didn’t feel sorry for myself at the time.
Erik: Sure. So what was your individual relationship with both your mother and your father?
Debra: I was a daddy’s girl. He bought me presents. He would bring presents home for me and not for her. So that was bad. And, um, he was abusive to me, though. And my relationship with her. I really loved her again. There were times we just had so much fun together. But generally, I was afraid of her because she would lash out at me and I wouldn’t know why. So I was a little bit walking on eggshells in my house because there weren’t there weren’t rules that you knew if you didn’t follow them, you’d get in trouble. That just something would happen and all of a sudden you’d be in serious trouble. So you knew some things you couldn’t do. So it was very hard to be a child for me because I was the oldest. My younger brother does not feel that way. So for me, it was hard because I was a good girl and I was often treated like I wasn’t a good girl.
Erik: And your mom would often not include you in activities, right?
Debra: Yes. We had a college student living with us and she came to stay with us, actually, when she was in high school. And she became my mom’s best friend. And they would have all this. I mean, she her fun was with this, with this girl. It wasn’t with me. And I was really jealous. And sometimes they’d have me with them, but they wouldn’t pay any attention to me. They’d laugh and scratch and make fun of each other. And I felt very left out. And it wasn’t a situation where I could go to my mother and tell her how I felt and how it was hurting my feelings. I just I knew I couldn’t do that, that she wouldn’t want to hear it, that she would just chastise me as being selfish or something like that. So there was that jealousy with that. But that was really the only person that made me feel like I was an outcast.
Erik: Yeah, that that had to be rough. One of the harder things for me to read was what your dad did to your, your dog, Shep.
Debra: I know, isn’t that terrible?
Erik: Yeah.
Debra: You know, and I, I have an issue with animals forever. Now, as far as I was concerned, I had done something wrong to cause that to happen to Shep, and I don’t. Shep just was excited to see me, and I was little. So he jumped up and I lost my balance. I don’t think he was going to hurt me and to have that kind of reaction. I mean, my. That’s the way my father loved me, you know, to lash out violently somewhere else. And it was a bad message about love.
Erik: And I think you write in your book that you made the mistake of telling your parents that he had pushed you down, and then your dad, for some reason, decided to kill Shep.
Debra: Yes.
Erik: Gosh, I mean, you really had to, to navigate some, some landmines growing up. And as far as your relationship with your mom, you write that your mom could be very emotionally detached, but she also craved emotional connection at the same time.
Debra: Yes, that’s quite an irony, isn’t it?
Erik: Yeah. And how did that manifest itself, do you think?
Debra: Well, she really did need a lot of affection. And he was cold, man. And she didn’t get it from him, which is, I think, why she began to step out. And I remember she went up back when heaters were in the wall in our home, and she went up and put her arms around him. And he just stood there with his hands at his side. And that that hurt her. But she responded by being mad, which I don’t blame her for that. So, uh, you know, he wasn’t he wasn’t a loving husband. I think he loved her, but he was messed up.
Erik: And your dad was was miserable as a dentist, right? Absolutely miserable.
Debra: He talked about having to look into people’s dirty mouths every day when he went to work.
Erik: And the longer he did it, the more he hated it. And a lot of that negative energy spilled over into your family.
Debra: Yes, Indeed.
Erik: Yeah. You mentioned earlier that that your mom had an affair. What were the circumstances of that affair to your understanding? And how were you looped into it information wise?
Debra: Yes. Um, they were our family best friends. And the the daughter in that family was my best friend. And the father in that family. Um, he he was a philanderer. And when we would go on their boat and they, we were together, he and my mom always flirted. It was embarrassing, actually. And then finally and, and then she, they started having an affair. And she thought that she could take him from his wife and actually would tell him how much better he was a very successful and well known attorney. And she would tell him how, you know, to have her on his arm when they went to these cocktail parties, you know, would do him so much better. Would be better for him. But he loved his wife, even if he couldn’t be faithful to her. But my mom thought she. My mom thought she was different, and she thought she could change him and she couldn’t. And then she ended up telling me about it. So I became kind of her confidant a bit. I didn’t know as much as I found out in the trial, but she told me about it. And, you know, I, I always expressed to her that I thought he was greasy. You know, I just, I, I had the, the kid instinct that this guy was bad news for her. And she flaunted it too, in front of, in front of my father. And so things just kept getting worse and worse and worse.
Erik: And how old were you when she was telling you about this?
Debra: Thirteen or fourteen. This was just months before. Before his wife died mysteriously and before my father died. So this. His wife died in April of nineteen sixty four. And my father died in October of nineteen sixty four. And then the trial really didn’t start until nineteen sixty five.
Erik: Did you think it was a little odd that that she was sharing those those details with you?
Debra: You know what? I, at fourteen years old, was so thrilled to have her want me as a confidant. I did not criticize her for it at all. I she knew how I felt about Arthwell Hayton, but I, I, it wasn’t until I got older that I saw how inappropriate it it was for her to do that. But at the time, you know, my mom wanted to tell me things that other people didn’t know. And I got her attention and and so I was delighted to be her confidante.
Erik: Right. Can you talk more about Arthwell Hayton’s wife, Elaine, and the circumstances of how she passed away?
Debra: I, I remember telling my mother once, and this is in the book that I that I wished I lived in the Hayton house. It was a messy house. Our house was pristine, but it was not. You know, there was tension around that. Kids. You weren’t allowed to be a kid. And the Hayton house. It was much freer. And she was a lovely, kind woman. And, you know, she wasn’t fashionable like my mom And my. They were friends. And Elaine found a bracelet in the. In her husband’s red convertible Cadillac. And I, you know, who knows whose it was because he was a philanderer. And so I don’t know if she ever knew that it was. My mother was one of his women. And the night that she called and wanted my mom to come over. I don’t know if she was going to confront my mom or what about it. And they, um. And so. And my father went with her, but he stayed in the car. So we don’t know what went on in the house. And, um, there’s Terry’s story, the best friend. So. Oh, and my mother, it was obvi. It was always obvious to me that my mother preferred Terry over me. She for everyone over me.
Erik: Oh my gosh. How did Elaine pass away?
Debra: Um, we don’t know for sure how she died. There were different theories to it. So some think it’s pills. Um, some things think it’s other thing, like she had a reaction to something. But we, we never knew the autopsy. Whatever it turned out to be, they didn’t share it with our family.
Erik: Did you ever attempt to obtain a copy of the autopsy report?
Debra: That never even occurred to me till just now that you bring that up. It didn’t occur to me to go look for that information. All I know is that the prosecutor my brother and I had, he was a wicked, terrible man. My brother and I had lunch with him years later when I was thinking of writing. And he said that if my mother hadn’t been convicted of murdering my father, they were going to bring charges against her for murdering Elaine.
Erik: Wow. So police believe that there was evidence somewhere at the scene of her death or in the coroner’s records.
Debra: It seems that way, yes. It does seem that way. And, Terry, you know, Terry had an experience with mom that night that was very eerie. And she thinks that my mom killed her mom. And all of the Hayton children thought that.
Erik: Oh my goodness. So. So your father, in the weeks leading up to October seventh, nineteen sixty four, had been especially despondent. Right. And your family was actively wondering whether he might kill himself.
Debra: Yes. My mother, uh, I found this out after the the book was done, but apparently he started threatening suicide very early in their marriage. So and I remember one night, you know, he got mad about something and he was he always said he’d make it look like an accident so she could get the life insurance. And I remember one night her screaming to me to grab the car keys and run in my bedroom and lock the door. And there are other people that could verify her running out after him when he’d run to the car claiming, can you imagine how mean that was to do that to her though?
Erik: Yes, yes, that was, uh, quite cruel.
Debra: It was cruel.
Erik: Yeah. If you don’t mind, can you tell us what was happening in your house up to that moment where your parents got in the car to go take a ride together to the store?
Debra: It was a typical night in our house. I know that I was doing homework, I was it was important to me to be a good student, which is another thing that wasn’t encouraged in my house. Um, I, you know, I just always felt like I’d been born in the wrong house. I was a reader and my mom took no interest in that. And when I asked her if she would take me to the library, like Mrs. Hayton took her kids, my mother said you wouldn’t read them. And I ended up being an English teacher. So, um, I think I lost my trail there. Whatever you asked, but. Oh, that night, so I, you know, we would have had dinner. And it was the kind of household where the family didn’t necessarily eat together. She would feed it was that she would feed the kids before my father got home and then feed him. But there were times we were all at the table. And I sort of remember us being at the table that night, but there wasn’t a discussion about, you know, what went on during the day, uh, how our days were. And so it was kind of quiet. And then I remember doing homework afterwards, and then I went to bed. You know, it, it wasn’t a house that had a lot of stimulation, but for my parents or for their children, I didn’t know any better at that time. That’s all I knew. It wasn’t really till I became a teacher or grew up that I realized my home was not right. Things weren’t right in my house.
Erik: Right. So. So your dad was not feeling well that evening.
Debra: Right. But he often wasn’t feeling super well.
Erik: But he liked hot chocolate.
Debra: Yes.
Erik: And that was the catalyst for the car trip, right?
Debra: Right, right. So he asked her to make him some and she went. And there wasn’t enough milk for breakfast for the kids and for him to have hot chocolate. So they, we lived, we lived sort of at the bottom of Mount Baldy. So it was a long trip down to a store. And the first one they went to was closed. And then they went even further to, to a store. So they were a long way from our house and she went in and got the milk. And then on the way home, you know, she took this dark street. And I don’t know why she did that. And, um, that’s where the accident happened.
Erik: Right. And an important detail here is that your dad was on some potent medication that left him groggy, sleepy. But he went along to the store anyway and basically slept in the car. Is that your understanding?
Debra: Yes. He took a blanket with him and she locked his side of the door. You know how you do. If the passenger was going to nod off and you wouldn’t want them to fall out of the car. So that’s what she did. You know, she just sort of shut him in there and went on her way.
Erik: And they got the milk and then they drove back. And that’s one of the most mysterious aspects of this, and very likely a reason why police would be suspicious of your mother. As you said, it wasn’t it wasn’t the route they took to get to the store. There was an odd detour, and it’s late at night. Why would she make a decision like that? Do you think I know?
Debra: You know, it’s very mysterious. Um. you know, she really suffered. I’m not so sure she was guilty. And I hope that she was, because her life was ruined and she tried to get it together when she got out of prison, and she just couldn’t. And so if she’s an innocent woman whose life was destroyed. I can’t bear it. I can’t bear it. So I wish for her to be guilty. But I’m not positive that she was guilty.
Erik: Right. So can you walk us through what happened from the point of view of your mother? From the the account your mother told.
Debra: She said that they were driving up the street and she decided to turn on Banyan, which is peculiar, I think, and that the car. And apparently we found, you know, Volkswagen went to a lot of trouble to make sure things didn’t come out about Volkswagen. And the car lurched to lurched to the right and there was a burn there and b e r n and then there were the orchards beyond that. And so the car jerked out, and then, according to her, it burst into flames in the back. Well, Volkswagens had their engines in the back. So she and she got out and she figured he got out. I mean, here’s flames behind her. Her scarf was scorched, and that scarf accidentally was thrown out by another person. So that would have helped her, that she did really get out of the car. And so she got out thinking that he got out and she saw that he didn’t get out. And the car is I mean, it was a little Volkswagen. So it’s like flaming. And she, She tried to find something to. She didn’t know what she was doing. She got a stick and they held it against her that it wasn’t a big enough stick. And she kind of didn’t know what she was doing. And finally she realized that she couldn’t she couldn’t get him out. So she just started running. And she knew that we’d had a car accident that summer, and I’d gone through a windshield because an old man ran the stop sign. And then she she thought she wasn’t getting to that house. So she turned around and and ran the other way to the street, Sapphire. And when she passed the car, he was burning up and, um she ran to this house and, you know, was hysterical. My husband’s burning up, my husband’s burning up and and um, and she called a friend who was a lawyer. But it got turned around that it was a that it was a lawyer who happened to be a friend, but they were friends. And he, he came up to that house and he went, they went back down and she went to. And um he saw that the police were suspicious of something. I’m not sure. You know what, they didn’t do anything in the right way that they should have. And except for a big, big mistake that she made, who knows what would have happened. But the doctor had given her pills to go to sleep because no one thought she was going to get arrested. So when they took her and they there was a whole mad car thing of chasing the police and the police, pulling over the people that were chasing them to follow her to, Who, you know, to the jail because they knew that she would just blather on and on and end up in trouble. But they lost. They lost those two people that were driving their cars to follow them. And they got her at the jail, and she just blabbed on and on. Nothing. Nothing to do with it. What happened that night, but just about who she was. And and she, they laughed and she, you know, she didn’t understand what they had tricked her into. And so when she thought she was done and ready to go, they said, oh, no, no, you’re you’re you’re staying here. And, and her children, that was October ninth. Her children didn’t see her again till December.
Erik: Yeah. That was one of the big mistakes in all of this. Right after the fire, your mom went home. She was given sleeping pills by the doctor, told to rest and then the police showed up. Not long after she went to bed, woke her up out of a deep sleep. So she’s half awake, hauled in and questioned while she was still under the effects of those pills.
Debra: They break into her bedroom and they stand at the end of the bed and she’s crying and she’s not. She’s in her nightgown. And they said, we’ll give you five minutes to get dressed or we’ll take you just the way you are.
Erik: Let me back up here for just a second. Um, back to the family attorney. Your mom did call the sheriff’s department right away, but like you said, she also called a friend from church who happened to be a lawyer. And what would become very suspicious to police is that when he arrived at the scene, he introduced himself to the detectives not as a family friend, which he should have, but as her attorney, which was not a good look at all. Right?
Debra: Exactly. There were a lot of mistakes, you know, on our side along the way.
Erik: And she got a chance to speak to you and your your brothers right before her arrest.
Debra: Yes. I don’t I don’t know that she told. Well, she told me to go get my brothers. And she told us that our father had died in a car accident. And, and I believe she had said, you know, that it, it caught on fire. And then, you know, we were hustled out of that house. We didn’t know what was going on. And these two people that took us out, we didn’t. My parents knew them, but we didn’t we didn’t know why we were being rushed out. Well, it was because they knew the police were on their way and they didn’t want us to witness that. So they took us to the attorney’s house with his wife. And then it was later that day that someone came to get me and told me that she’d been arrested, and she wasn’t coming home anytime soon.
Erik: And you would actually see a photo of your father’s body in the pages of a pulp detective magazine, right? Yes. Later on.
Debra: Yes. He. It was just ashes piled up in the car. There was some form of a of a figure, but it was all black.
Erik: Gosh, that that must have just been traumatic for you.
Debra: Yes, yes.
Erik: So what I’d like to do here is run through the case the police were building against your mom because a lot of things at the crime scene again, seemed very suspicious to them. So I’ll list a couple and feel free to comment.
Debra: Okay.
Erik: So here’s some of what didn’t sit well with police. The parking lights of the car were on. The car burned, but the gas tank was never ruptured. And and there was a blackened gas can lying on its side in the back seat. And that was your your mom’s. She always carried a gas can in the back seat.
Debra: There is an explanation for that. I was with her when she had that gas can filled out, filled up. She was notoriously running out of gas, so she kept. She kept a gas can in the car because she was always running out of gas. So to me, there was nothing strange about that. Also, we. We never saw the gas can. It mysteriously got lost in the crime lab, so it wasn’t presented as evidence or anything in the in the trial.
Erik: Weird that it disappeared, huh? And then another thing. The car was in low gear, which they thought was strange for a thirty five mile an hour crash in the skid marks were really short. This is directly from your book.
Debra: Yes. Um, you know, not everybody agreed about all those positions. There were people that on the stand that came on the stand that were experts against that, you know, they basically the jury didn’t like her. She, she remained, um, you know, it turned out she was pregnant and she had some clothes made for her and she wore her hair in this severe French twist. And she never cried. And she sat there and they just didn’t like her. And she. So, um. I mean, some of it was kind of her, you know, her. Someone told me they, she should have been crying, you know, she was not pitiful. She was stoic.
Erik: Right. I mean, often when someone convicted of something gets into a courtroom, I mean, there’s a flurry of emotions, right? And they might be getting coached by their attorneys. Don’t do this. Don’t do that. So you’re not necessarily your most natural self when you’re sitting behind a table being tried for murder. But of course, the jury’s still watching every move you make. At the same time. So there’s this intense, intense pressure.
Debra: I had a boyfriend at the time whose father was a very prominent attorney, and he he had said to the boyfriend, and the boyfriend told me that, you know, why is she why is she so stoic in there? Why is why is she so pristine in the way she looks? I mean, she needs to be pitiful, and she’s not pitiful. And I’ve wondered why they didn’t have this man to be her attorney. Um, because I think he probably would have gotten her off, but, uh, he was, you know, he was gruff and they were, and he was more money than our family had to, to pay for an attorney, which I just found out recently. So, uh, you know, I, it was just handled poorly and maybe she was guilty. I, I don’t know, but she didn’t help herself. I’ll tell you that.
Erik: Right. You mentioned something briefly that my listeners might be interested in knowing more about it was discovered that she was pregnant while incarcerated. That must have been a huge shock to to you and your siblings.
Debra: Yes. Huge shock to everybody. And this child was her my father’s. Her relationship with Arthwell Hayton had been over in the spring and this was a baby that, you know, they they were one of those couples thought if they just brought a new child into the family, everything would, you know, be rosy again. And so, um, they intended to have that child. So there’s nothing suspicious about that. But that child’s life was ruined by us.
Erik: What do you mean by that?
Debra: She was born, um. She was going to be be be born in prison, and my mother appealed to Governor Brown at the time to have her child out of the prison. So. So that Kimmy wouldn’t have the stigma. And it was granted. And so she had this baby, and my grandparents moved back from Portland to California. And we had a cousin, a second cousin, my mom’s first cousin that wanted to adopt this baby. But there was a catch to it. They didn’t want her to ever know who her true parents were. Well, we thought that my mother was at the time, you know, going to get acquitted and that we’d all go home and have this baby to spoil. And so we decided not to let her get up for adoption. And this is where I get emotional. And we should have Because she didn’t have a happy life, and she went to live with my grandparents and they died. And then she, I more or less kind of a street kid. And, and we didn’t really know her. And, um, it’s for, it’s the most terrible part of the book for me when I had to write the part about Kimmy. Um, and you can see it, it still has quite an effect on me because we should have let her go. She would have gone into a good and loving home.
Erik: But but you were young. You didn’t really have a say in all of this. I mean, it’s not your fault at all.
Debra: No, I don’t think it’s my fault, but I think, you know, it was kind of a family discussion and no one was talking in terms of letting the The baby go and I you know, that was a mistake.
Erik: But but how can you make a decision under under that kind of incredible stress?
Debra: Yeah. You know, you’re just doing we had a dream about us and this baby and she said she went to prison. And then my grandparents moved back to Canada for a time. And we didn’t see Kimmy during those years. And we never we never bonded with her. And then when my mom got out, she wanted Kimmy, and she told my grandmother that she was going to take her to court to get Kimmy. And my grandmother said, I’ll fight you every inch of the way. So Kimmy really never experienced her mom just for a short period of time. So this, this little thing suffered the most. You know. This little innocent baby suffered the most.
Erik: That’s so, so rough. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Debra: I don’t think you’re supposed to cry on a podcast.
Erik: Well people have shed tears on my podcast before. (Both laugh) So you’re not the first.
Debra: I don’t care if you don’t care. But that’s the trigger for me is Kimmy. That’s the trigger.
Erik: Yeah, yeah. Of course, because she had no control over what was happening in her life.
Debra: And she died at twenty five of cancer.
Erik: Oh, boy. Well, I’m so sorry that you and your your siblings had to experience that. I do want to ask this. There was a moment in all of this. It was a very brave decision that you made. You were insistent that that you wanted to to hug your mom. Just connect with her, right? Physically because you hadn’t seen her for a while. So you had this, this plan to get to her as she was walking into the courtroom?
Debra: Yes. I’m so proud of myself for that.
Erik: You should be.
Debra: I got it in my head that if they weren’t going to let me see her, that I. I was going to do something about it. And so all of the press was there and, and, um, you know, it was like they were fans or something. And I was standing against the wall and I was waiting. I thought when she gets to this certain point, I’m going to rush over there before anybody realizes what happened and I’m going to grab her. And, and that’s what I did. It just this she got to this certain point and I just ran across it wasn’t that far. And I grabbed her and she put her hands up and they were in handcuffs. And she leaned them on me. And then by then they realized what was happening and they pulled me away.
Erik: Wow, what a great moment for you.
Debra: I mean, the adrenaline was just pumping. I was not going to let anybody stop me.
Erik: There’s a lot of heart in your memoir, your relationship with your mom, how much you wanted to be in her presence, how difficult that was for you for a multitude of reasons, from her emotional detachment to to the physical separation when she had to go to prison.
Debra: Yes, I was a pretty brave girl. I would say. My brothers and I are very strong. So in spite of the lack of certain things in my home, these two people raised, you know, three very strong children who all turned out all right in the end. You know, I became a high school English teacher. My other brother ended up getting his master’s and becoming a high school English teacher. And my other brother took after my dad and became a dentist, and then followed his father in hating it in the end. So, you know, I have to give them credit for something because, you know, we we fell apart, but we got back together. We’ve never lost touch with each other. We live about an hour away from each other. And about every month or six weeks, we all get together and have dinner.
Erik: That’s great. Yeah. So your mom’s attorneys argued that the fire was caused by mechanical failure. That was the gist of the defense.
Debra: Yes. And there were lots of Volkswagens that had that. I even know someone who had that same mechanical failure. So, you know, Volkswagen was pouring money into that so that Volkswagen wouldn’t get blamed.
Erik: So the death penalty – that was on the table at first.
Debra: Yes. He asked for the death penalty. And when I mean what that did to me. And then the day she was convicted, I screamed I’ll never see my mother again because I thought she was going to be electrocuted. I didn’t know that that was just a ruse, that he had no intentions. Juries that are willing to do the death penalty are more likely to To convict. And that was his whole point. That’s all he wanted was a jury that would be willing to convict. And he never intended. But I didn’t know that. I’m this fourteen year old girl, and I think my mom’s going to die. So I completely fell apart, and they had to kind of drag me out of the courtroom.
Erik: Yeah. So what do you think were the biggest reasons your mother was convicted? What do you think ultimately tipped the scale against her?
Debra: Well, her I don’t think her attorney did did a good job. She wasn’t likable. I was I came to court almost every day. But any time that there was like this technical stuff, I, I wasn’t there for that. So probably the prosecution had a better technical guy than we had on our side. So he was able to convince them that the car didn’t do this on its own. You know, that someone had set that fire. So I think it was an accumulation of things that got her convicted, not just any one thing.
Erik: Right. So I can’t not ask you about Joan Didion. An important player in these events. Would you talk about her? What you know about her background and where she was in her career when she decided to. To write about your mother and your family?
Debra: She was new in her career, and it became part of, you know, uh, the Bethlehem book. So I didn’t know her then. And my mom hated her article and thought it made us look terrible. And I, I hated it too, for a long time and didn’t like her. And then when I. I got married and I was looking for an essay to teach my class, and I came across that in my study. And when I read it, I thought, you know, this is how she presented where we lived and how it was correctly. I don’t I don’t know why my family, I mean, it’s not flattering, but it wasn’t wrong. And so around that time, I wrote her a letter, you know, and I said it helped to make you famous, but it’s the story of my life. And she answered me and she, she was, you know, very she felt bad not about her article, but she felt bad what happened to us. And then she went off on this. I don’t know about the writer and her subject and just intellectualize the whole thing. And then, um, and then she wrote another book and my stepdaughter, Robin Abcarian, was going to interview her at the Writers Guild. And, uh, Robin is a columnist for the LA Times. And so she invited me to come along, you know, and she told me that Joan Didion was shy and not to expect too, too much from her, but she introduced me, and Joan Didion just grabbed me and dragged me over to her husband and said, you know, this is Debbie. And then she put her arm through mine and marched me down the auditorium all the way to the front and sat me right next to her. And when Shelby Coffey read parts of the book, and of course, he read, you know, the burning car stuff, she took my hand and I never saw her again, but I, I mean, I had a wonderful experience with her.
Erik: Wow.
Debra: Yeah. It wasn’t like her reputation was. She was just completely warm and and took me right in her arms.
Erik: A full circle moment. Yeah. And for listeners who may not be familiar with her name, she’s considered one of the forerunners of what’s called New Journalism. And she’s mentioned in the same breath as Truman Capote, Hunter S. Thompson, Tom Wolfe. She was a writer and a journalist. And as you mentioned, this article she wrote was about your mom. She did want to interview your mom too, but but this originally ran in the Saturday Evening Post, and it was a huge boost to her career, as you said.
Debra: And I think it was a mistake that I just think my mom’s my mom’s attorney. They just made so many mistakes. You know, Robin believed that Joan Didion would have liked my mother, that they had sort of some common traits. And my mother was little, and Joan Didion was little. And and my mother was a very likable person. And, um, that it was a mistake not to, not to let her interview my mom. So there’s another thing, you know. Things just weren’t done right by her.
Erik: Right. So how does she do in prison? Does she adjust? And what was your time like visiting her by now?
Debra: You know, if she wasn’t a criminal before, she’s a criminal now. She had her children bringing in contraband to her, He actually into the waiting room and the people at the front desk really liked us. And I would be going in there and she made me feel or I don’t know if she meant to make me feel, but I felt like if I didn’t bring her in stuff, why would I come now? She never said that, but she knew I was terrified and she didn’t care. My brothers would leave liquor, so she kind of, um, became a kingpin in the prison. She was able to get all this stuff in and sell it. And she was, she was very popular, you know, and she had a little butch that was her lover and took and protected her. And that’s not in the book. So she established herself. She was able to do that. This was the strange thing about my mom. She. Even when we were growing up, she had what my brothers and I referred to as orphans. And she did this when she got out of prison to. And she, she had these people in her life who. Their life was really hard or something was wrong. And she would take them under her wing. And she did that in prison too. Because when we went in to see her the first time, they let us in on a Christmas. Um, one of them came into her room to meet us. So, you know, it can’t be fun to be in prison for seven years. But she, you know, she made a name for herself in there, and she survived.
Erik: Yeah. She seemed to to thrive wherever she went. She she tried to make the most of it. Now, what kind of contraband were you smuggling in and how did you sneak it in? May I ask?
Debra: Okay, so there’s a spice called mace. I don’t know what it’s used for, but in prison, they. You can get high on it. I don’t think it’s a very good high, but you can get high on it. So we used to have to go into the into the market and clean out the cupboards in um of the mace. And that always embarrassed me. Like if they’re thinking, what the hell are these kids buying all these jars of mace for? And then we would go home and put them in baggies and roll them up like a Tampax. And I’ll be blunt with you. You would, you know, you would take those into her and she’d slide them right up herself without you even knowing. And then we brought in, uh, you know, more expensive cosmetics to her up there. We brought in liquor and would hide it places and she’d arrange for it to be picked up. So, I mean, this is how she protected herself. She was able to supply these kinds of things to other people.
Erik: Wow. You write in your book that that it was important for her to be as attractive as possible all the time. Her appearance was very important to her.
Debra: Yes. Yes.
Erik: And that was in prison, too?
Debra: Yes it was. And she still wanted her Lancôme.
Erik: Yeah. So what was she found guilty of? It was first degree murder?
Debra: First degree.
Erik: First degree murder. And out in seven years.
Debra: Yes. In those days, that wouldn’t happen now. In those days, you came before the board. in seven years. And, you know, all the honchos at the prison, they really liked her. And some of them didn’t think she was guilty. And so she went before the board once, and they released her.
Erik: When she got released. Was it a big story?
Debra: Oh, yes.
Erik: How did people feel about that, her getting out after only seven years?
Debra: I’m not sure. You know, we’ve never been forgotten. You go on the internet and we’re all over the place, and there’s even this. This club that my brother found, I don’t know, on the dark web or somewhere of people. And it’s recent because they’d read my Joan Didion piece that I wrote in the LA Times after she died.
Erik: So what were the circumstances of her release? I mean, she was on probation.
Debra: Probation, and, um, F. Lee Bailey. He was a famous attorney and he sort of handled her appeals. That didn’t work. But that wasn’t his fault. And I mean, she was picked up in a limousine and I was in that limousine, so…
Erik: Wow.
Debra: Yeah. We picked her up as usual for my mom. You know, just it had to be a fanfare. And, um, then we drove back into LA that day and there was a party at a friend’s house for her. And my brother commented when mom walked across from one room into the other toward him, she said that he, he is reminded always that that was the first time he’d seen her walk across the room.
Erik: So what was your relationship like with your mom when she got out? Did. Did it change? Did it get better?
Debra: Oh, no, it did not get better. I wanted a mommy and I lived with and followed that woman around where she when she moved. And it was so toxic and my need to be with her was so strong that I put up with that stuff. And finally I was able to, um, you know, to get out of it and, and get off on my own. But, uh, yeah, I just wanted to be with her no matter what. And, you know, not all of it was bad. Some of it was a lot of fun. She was a lot of fun, but she, uh. This is. No, I’m not even going to say that. So anyway, yeah, it was hard. And it took me a while to grow up and get out on my own.
Erik: It had to be so confusing for you. You know, you wanted to be close to your mom, and she’d been sent to prison for killing your dad. I mean, do you remember during those years when you were trying to stick close to her, whether you were thinking, you know, okay, she murdered my dad, but I still love her. Or were you thinking she was innocent at that point? Do you remember?
Debra: Well, I thought she was innocent until I started living with her, and then I just then I decided she was guilty. But I still loved her. And I still love her to this day. And I have a great deal of sorrow for her, and I have her a picture of her. And I often look at it and, you know, she was terribly abused as a child. Um, she had this husband that didn’t offer her anything that she needed. And then she, you know, goes to prison and she got out of prison. She. She really never pulled it together. And she tried. She tried, but she didn’t. And so I have a great deal of sympathy for her, whether she killed him or not.
Erik: Did you miss your dad?
Debra: No.
Erik: So she passed away of cancer in her fifties. And during her funeral. It was then that you started learning things about her, and that started changing her mind a little bit, making you see things from a different perspective.
Debra: Yes. And it was at that point that I began to think, maybe she did kill him. I mean, when you’re when you’re a child and even a teenager, I mean, you’re going to think your mom is innocent. You’re just going to that’s what you’re going to do. And it took, you know, growing up in that conversation in the bedroom at her funeral that just switched on a light about. Wait a minute, wait a minute. You know, if that could happen, then maybe this could have happened, too.
Erik: And you learned that she had likely stolen some things, right?
Debra: Yes. She had stolen some things. The there was a woman in our family that, um, you know, came basically into the one who my mom always had so much fun with. And, um, she stole stuff from her. He stole, she stole her fur coat, some other things. And how I found that out. My mom’s stuff was in my brother’s garage because they, we didn’t know where she was. And someone called that we didn’t know and said, you need to come and pick up your mom. She’s dying. So my brothers went to get her, and when I went out to my brother’s apartment to see her, that her stuff was in the garage. And I started going through it and I saw things that belonged to this woman, this other woman. And so at, at at my brother’s house, at the funeral, I started to say, oh, I, I found some of the jewelry that you loaned mom. And this woman said, what jewelry? Explain it to me. And I described it. And she said, that was all part of the inventory of the, of the robbery.
Erik: Oh, wow.
Debra: And my mom. Never admitted it, ever. She died taking it to her grave.
Erik: She was given the opportunity at the end to to confess. And she still refused to do it.
Debra: Right. And so, you know, that’s when I went, well, if she could take that secret to her grave. Why not a more serious secret to her grave?
Erik: But even earlier in life, when your parents were making their move to California, you write in your book that she forged your dad’s name on a home purchase. Correct?
Debra: Right. He he he found out about it. But, you know, he was he was a very weak man in many ways, and he just didn’t do anything about it. When he found out about it, he just went along.
Erik: So what was the moment? Was there a moment in writing this book or something clicked for you in your head? Gosh, maybe she didn’t kill my father. I need to be more open about this.
Debra: I can’t say. I can’t, I can, I can’t say definitively. I, I can’t say that either way about either. Uh, either one of them. I was thinking recently, though, about how did how would she. I mean, he asked her to go down and get some hot chocolate, and she was afraid at night that we knew. And she asked him to go with her. Um, and so how would she. I mean, she didn’t plan that night. So I don’t understand that part of it. She didn’t she didn’t plan it. He asked her to go down and, and get some milk. And then they came back and she did take this street that I don’t know why she took it. Um but it, it sometimes it just doesn’t fit for me that, um that it was. I mean, why that night? I mean, he he suggested it. She didn’t. So, I mean, did she think, oh, boy, now’s my opportunity. You know, I, I don’t know, that seems preposterous to me. So I’m very confused.
Erik: And motive. That’s something I was thinking about while reading your book. If she had killed your father, did she do it because they just didn’t get along for selfish reasons, because she didn’t want him around anymore, or she wanted to collect the insurance money? Or could she have convinced herself that it was a mercy killing because he he wanted to die? He was suicidal, he was depressed, and maybe she thought she was helping him?
Debra: No, no. What I could possibly believe is that she saw thought somehow if she got both Elaine and my father out of the way, that Arthwell might come back to her and she could have him.
Erik: Which would have been premeditated. Right?
Debra: Right. You know, he was gone. She she was, uh. She didn’t get to see him anymore. But I’ve thought, you know, if she did do it, I could see. I mean, she was like, not in her. She wasn’t realistic about him. She really thought that she could get him so that he’d long left her. So the only reason that she would have to me is to get him back.
Erik: Wow. Goodness. So I talked with other guests who have had deep personal connections to horrific events. And writing a book is is typically cathartic. It’s a release. Did you feel that way when it was all over?
Debra: A little bit. I can’t say that what people think I experienced is what actually I, I actually experienced. Um, you know, it was traumatic and I probably have PTSD and inside of me there, it’s there. But, um, you know, I’ve moved on, I’ve moved on. And when it was over, I was very depressed at first because I’d been with her all that time writing the book. And, um, and in a way, I didn’t want it to end because I got to be with her during that time. But it was also very painful.
Erik: Well, she tried to control her narrative, and now you’re taking control of yours. And that’s really important.
Debra: Can I ask you a question? Could you tell that I loved her when you read the book?
Erik: Oh, yeah.
Debra: Okay.
Erik: Yeah. I think that moment when you forced your way to her side to connect with her in that courtroom, that says a lot about how you were feeling.
Debra: And throughout everything?
Erik: Yeah. For sure.
Debra: Good.
Erik: And that’s important to you?
Debra: Yes.
Erik: Well, my goodness, this has been so interesting. And again, I really appreciate you sharing this very personal story. Your book is called The Most Wonderful, Terrible Person: A Memoir of Murder in the Golden State. And this is a Simon and Schuster, right?
Debra: They distributed it. It. It’s a woman’s publishing company that I use but she they. Simon and Schuster distributes for her company.
Erik: And your book is available everywhere books are sold.
Debra: Right. And and the company that I it was called She Writes Press.
Erik: Very cool.
Debra: And it’s on Amazon and I think it’s at Barnes and Noble. It comes out in audio. You can get it in audio.
Erik: Do you narrate your own book or does somebody else?
Debra: I don’t, but people who’ve read heard the audio said they really liked it. They really liked the voice.
Erik: Have you thought about listening to it, or is it a little too close to home for you right now?
Debra: Yeah. Maybe someday. I don’t like I don’t read books that way. I, I have to hold a book in my hand so it’s not how I read books, and I don’t have a desire to listen to the audio again. Who knows why that is?
Erik: Well thank you. I do want to say thank you for being a high school English teacher for thirty three years. My favorite teacher ever was my high school English teacher, Mrs. Luckfield. And her interest in me, her guidance was was very important. And I’ll bet you touched a lot of lives as an English teacher.
Debra: I did because of who I was, I did. I had a different approach to teaching than most other teachers did because of what I went through was very empathetic.
Erik: I can only imagine. I can only imagine. Well, thank you again, Debra. This has been so…
Debra: Thank you. This was really a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much.
Erik: Again, I have been speaking to Debra Miller. Her book is called The Most Wonderful, Terrible Person: A Memoir of Murder in the Golden State. This has been another episode of the Most Notorious podcast, broadcasting to every dark and cobwebbed corner of the world. I’m Erik Rivenes. And have a safe tomorrow.